Индейское слово "Хуг!"
Nov. 24th, 2024 10:19 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kot_kamЯ тут голословно заявил, что знаменитое индейское "хуг!" у Фенимора Купера - не что иное, как английское huh (которое практически то же самое, что русское "А?") Митрилиан не поленилась слазить в оригинал и обнаружила, что это не совсем так. У Фенимора Купера это слово пишется hugh, и коньтекст примерно такой:
Is he a Mohawk?"
"Not by birth, though adopted in that tribe; I think his birthplace was farther north, and he is one of those you call a Huron."
"Hugh!" exclaimed the two companions of the scout, who had continued, until this part of the dialogue, seated immovable, and apparently indifferent to what passed, but who now sprang to their feet with an activity and interest that had evidently got the better of their reserve, by surprise.
То есть, чисто теоретически, можно предположить, что это huh так написано, тем более, что и контекст подходящий (здесь же это явно возглас изумления, да?) Гугл, во всяком случае, все запросы на hugh exclamation упорно переводил на huh. Однако же на запрос hugh Fenimore Cooper он мне принес следующее любопытное обсуждение:
Why do book Indians say 'ugh'?
Для начала отметим, что здесь все же не hugh, а ugh, что, впрочем, поясняется в одной из реплик:
In the first edition of The Last of the Mohicans, "ugh" was actually spelled "hugh," but this must have been changed to avoid confusion with the name Hugh. (которое читается "Хью" и вообще не про это. - К.К.)
Далее избранные места:
1 Muscogulus
I have a hypothesis about the literary (and cinematic) use of "ugh" as a supposedly characteristic Indian utterance. After a series of blog posts I posed this:
My working hypothesis is that “ugh” sprang from the fertile imagination of James Fenimore Cooper, who used it in his fiction to signal an essential difference between Indians and non-Indians. The popularity of Cooper’s tales helped make “ugh” the most widely recognized (and most demeaning) marker of “Indian” speech.
The very earliest use of "ugh" in Indian speech, that I know of, is from Cooper's 1826 novel The Last of the Mohicans. I'd like to challenge the group to disprove this hypothesis with an earlier use of "ugh" to mark Indian speech.
There's more on the subject here, including other literary uses of "ugh" as an exclamation.
It's possible that the sound of "ugh" has actual cognitive meaning in at least one of the hundreds of North American indigenous languages, but so far I have no reason to think Cooper was basing his "ugh"s on actual human speech. It seems to express something essentially different and inferior in his Indian characters. I say this because his white characters who fluently speak an Indian language are never heard to say "ugh."
2 Nicole_VanK
Well, there are (or have been) so many languages in the world, the word "ugh" must have meant something in at least one of them. That's just a matter of statistics. ;-)
3 LolaWalser
No clue, but in the comic books of my childhood, the Indians were given to exclaiming "haug!" or "haugh!" in a way that suggested this was some sort of emphatic "yes", "by Jove!", "indeedy" or "I have spoken".
6 Muscogulus
Several Indian languages have emphatic syllables that are often used to affirm what's being said. In Siouan languages these sound like "how" — the source of another Indian stereotype: AFAIK no Indian languages use it as a greeting. Muskogee has a similar sounding hvo (like "haw"), often uttered by an audience to affirm what a speaker is saying — the way some congregations encourage a preacher with "say it," "that's right," etc. I'm sure there are other examples. I still don't know of "ugh" being used that way.
10 lilithcat
Personally, I think they say "ugh" because the books are bad. It's a review.
12 Muscogulus
Again, if you read old books and you're interested (as I am) in tracking "ugh" to its source, please make note of any occurrences of "ugh"/"hugh"/"haugh" or the like in a work dating from 1826 or earlier.
So far, The Last of the Mohicans holds the title, so James Fenimore Cooper gets the blame. But maybe he doesn't deserve it?
Короче, на круг это самое "хуг/уг" (как бы оно ни читалось) - видимо, "специальное индейское слово", придуманное Фенимором Купером, и чисто случайно совпадающее с английским междометием, выражающим пренебрежение или отвращение (нечто вроде "фу/тьфу").
Is he a Mohawk?"
"Not by birth, though adopted in that tribe; I think his birthplace was farther north, and he is one of those you call a Huron."
"Hugh!" exclaimed the two companions of the scout, who had continued, until this part of the dialogue, seated immovable, and apparently indifferent to what passed, but who now sprang to their feet with an activity and interest that had evidently got the better of their reserve, by surprise.
То есть, чисто теоретически, можно предположить, что это huh так написано, тем более, что и контекст подходящий (здесь же это явно возглас изумления, да?) Гугл, во всяком случае, все запросы на hugh exclamation упорно переводил на huh. Однако же на запрос hugh Fenimore Cooper он мне принес следующее любопытное обсуждение:
Why do book Indians say 'ugh'?
Для начала отметим, что здесь все же не hugh, а ugh, что, впрочем, поясняется в одной из реплик:
In the first edition of The Last of the Mohicans, "ugh" was actually spelled "hugh," but this must have been changed to avoid confusion with the name Hugh. (которое читается "Хью" и вообще не про это. - К.К.)
Далее избранные места:
1 Muscogulus
I have a hypothesis about the literary (and cinematic) use of "ugh" as a supposedly characteristic Indian utterance. After a series of blog posts I posed this:
My working hypothesis is that “ugh” sprang from the fertile imagination of James Fenimore Cooper, who used it in his fiction to signal an essential difference between Indians and non-Indians. The popularity of Cooper’s tales helped make “ugh” the most widely recognized (and most demeaning) marker of “Indian” speech.
The very earliest use of "ugh" in Indian speech, that I know of, is from Cooper's 1826 novel The Last of the Mohicans. I'd like to challenge the group to disprove this hypothesis with an earlier use of "ugh" to mark Indian speech.
There's more on the subject here, including other literary uses of "ugh" as an exclamation.
It's possible that the sound of "ugh" has actual cognitive meaning in at least one of the hundreds of North American indigenous languages, but so far I have no reason to think Cooper was basing his "ugh"s on actual human speech. It seems to express something essentially different and inferior in his Indian characters. I say this because his white characters who fluently speak an Indian language are never heard to say "ugh."
2 Nicole_VanK
Well, there are (or have been) so many languages in the world, the word "ugh" must have meant something in at least one of them. That's just a matter of statistics. ;-)
3 LolaWalser
No clue, but in the comic books of my childhood, the Indians were given to exclaiming "haug!" or "haugh!" in a way that suggested this was some sort of emphatic "yes", "by Jove!", "indeedy" or "I have spoken".
6 Muscogulus
Several Indian languages have emphatic syllables that are often used to affirm what's being said. In Siouan languages these sound like "how" — the source of another Indian stereotype: AFAIK no Indian languages use it as a greeting. Muskogee has a similar sounding hvo (like "haw"), often uttered by an audience to affirm what a speaker is saying — the way some congregations encourage a preacher with "say it," "that's right," etc. I'm sure there are other examples. I still don't know of "ugh" being used that way.
10 lilithcat
Personally, I think they say "ugh" because the books are bad. It's a review.
12 Muscogulus
Again, if you read old books and you're interested (as I am) in tracking "ugh" to its source, please make note of any occurrences of "ugh"/"hugh"/"haugh" or the like in a work dating from 1826 or earlier.
So far, The Last of the Mohicans holds the title, so James Fenimore Cooper gets the blame. But maybe he doesn't deserve it?
Короче, на круг это самое "хуг/уг" (как бы оно ни читалось) - видимо, "специальное индейское слово", придуманное Фенимором Купером, и чисто случайно совпадающее с английским междометием, выражающим пренебрежение или отвращение (нечто вроде "фу/тьфу").
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 08:42 am (UTC)>>> in the comic books of my childhood, the Indians were given to exclaiming "haug!" or "haugh!"
"Герой Мит
рича на совете старейшин объявляет, что он «вступает на тропу войны», заключая: «Хау, я всё сказал»"."Хау, я всё сказал! ... Это председатель Совета Министров СССР Алексей Николаевич Косыгин на встрече с индейцами".
«Некоторые говорят, что "здравствуйте" по-Лакотски звучит: "Хау". Это - ошибка! Такого слова в Лакотском языке нет вообще! Есть слово "Ха(н)". И оно не означает "здравствуйте", оно означает: "да" или вообще подтверждение, признание, узнавание, приветствие. В качестве приветствия Лакота может сказать "Ха(н)", но это не означает "здравствуй"».
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 10:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 11:17 am (UTC)всякие а, у, э, и ага кстати- вполне международные. за это открытие несколько лет назад вручили шнобелевку. тогда как раз смотрел видео одного китайского гросса по го, он постоянно орал- ага! там интонация важна, и кто угодно поймёт, что имеется в виду, если с интонацией.
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 11:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 11:37 am (UTC)пусть заругают, мне бы было интересно что-то узнать. китаец орал- хи гоу хиар- ага, нау ай гоу хиар. и т.п. конкретно, если верно помню, это был илунь янь. это ага тогда поразило
https://nikoraido.ru/files/Ilun-YAn-Fundamentalnye-printsipy-Go.pdf (https://nikoraido.ru/files/Ilun-YAn-Fundamentalnye-printsipy-Go.pdf)
no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 02:05 am (UTC)Слушайте, действительно «Кин-дза-за»
no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 03:26 pm (UTC)это был очень крутой гроссмейстер, автор одного из лучших учебников для продолжающих. но да, ага, кин-дза-дза.
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 02:30 pm (UTC)* В японском есть несколько часто употребимых словосочетаний с таким звучанием.
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 03:07 pm (UTC)Дружили они с первого класса, сказав за сараями клятву: «Небо, земля и честь. Хук».
Последнее слово значило по-индейски, что сказано всё и к сказанному добавить нечего.
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 03:11 pm (UTC)Ещё бы Погодин не читал Купера!
no subject
Date: 2024-11-24 06:22 pm (UTC)купер был редкостный душнила!
no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 06:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-11-25 10:04 am (UTC)